Posts by Joe Grundy

52

What happened between Jesus death & the gospels being written?

by yaddayadda in

hi, i'm interested in researching this subject.

can anyone recommend any good books that offer critical theories on the origins of early christianity, specifically the content and creation of the gospels.

for instance, how much of the gospels is underlying historical truth and how much might be exaggerations that crept in through, say 'chinese whispers' in the time between jesus death and the writing of the gospels ?

Joe Grundy

PeacefulPete:

Thanks for that link.

May I offer you another which shows that the 'snake in the firewood' legend lived on?

http://www.castlewales.com/roch.html

This was about 5 miles from my home before I moved out here.

19

Hate at site of convention goers!

by blumandy in

so im eating dinner with my hubby and kids at a local family restaurant, when in walks some people with name tags of some sort, i cant read them, im sitting to far away, but they have the look of the convention name tags.

well i guess i can spot a jw right off, because sure enough as i got closer, there it was a flash back from the past.

the same ol name tags.

Joe Grundy

I'm not qualified to comment on this really, but I will ...

The only JWs I know are a nice friendly helpful couple with two young children. He has 3 jobs. She doesn't go out to work (not surprisingly) and at 39 is (unexpectedly for them both) pregnant again. They go out to many meetings, and have at least two evening meetings a week in their (small) apartment. He is a 'pioneer', the little daughter told me. She (the mum) looks washed out and drained.

As an outsider, I have no reason to hate them. I should, of course, be envious of them because of their membership of the 'true religion' and all that sort of stuff. I'm not, I feel sorry for them and angry about those who are, I believe, taking advantage of them.

I don't think it's likely that I'd say or do anything on purpose to make them question their faith. The mum is the more read of the couple, and the one with better English. But if they lost their faith, what would they have? Bugger all, I suspect. And without challenging the parents, there's no hope for the children.

So, as an outsider I feel sympathy, anger and so on. I'd love to challenge the guy who I think is the big banana in their congregation (I've met him a couple of times) but it would only make things worse.

So, nothing to do with me really, walk on by, keep moving. But I happen to believe that all of us on this planet bear some responsibility for each other.

38

What is your favorite WT quotation?

by AliveinChrist in

jw
friends

greetings group.

i was just reading over some old literature and found some amazing quotes made by the watchtower; i think my head really hurts now.

i thought i would post this last one to see if you could get through it without getting a headache.

Joe Grundy

I can't offer a WT quote, because the only ones I know are the ones I've read here and on 'quotes' sites (and a lot of them seem to blur into one, to be honest).

But can I offer this one? (Source: my kids when young on almost every car journey)

"Are we there yet? OK, are we NEARLY there yet?"

19

Did you ridicule apostates for attacking the Org. and not Bible doctrine?.

by Wasanelder Once in

when i was a busy little pie-in-ear we had a local apostate who would come and pretend to be interested.

he always attacked russell and rutherford and the early organization.

(this was in the late 80's early 90's) after he left, the young brother with me said, "these apostates always attack the imperfect organization but never can show anything from the bible.

Joe Grundy

An outsider's view:

Any organisation where the figurehead lays itself open to ridicule will suffer, be that a religion, political party, government, etc.

But WTBTS (and not only them) put themselves squarely in the firing line because of their claims to be 'inspired' 'directed' 'God's only channel' etc. (And yes, I am aware of J R Brown's latest 'doublespeak' a la Orwell's '1984', but that doesn't negate their claims of the last 100 years, does it?).

In another thread I just started here ('Intelligent Analysis') I mention to need to critically assess both the source of the information and the information itself before coming to an opinion. As an (over the top) example: if a drunken beggar approached you in the street, asked you for money, and told you of a 'wonderful investment', you'd probably ignore it. If your long-time and proven successful financial adviser called you with an opportunity, you'd probably hear him out.

With my limited knowledge, my instinct would be to treat the WTBTS like the drunk and value the information accordingly.

It's WTBTS who have given the organisation the status it has (or which they wish it had), and claimed that the information should be accepted because it is the WTBTS that is providing it. WTBTS cannot now complain (but it probably will) if people now question or reject the information because they reject, or question, the WTBTS itself.

IMHO.

4

Question re Mary.

by Tez in

well it started with one and sort of developed from there.. firstly, mary was a virgin when she miraculously conceived jesus, so does that mean then that he was illegetimate, and if so then why did jehovah not simply allow her to marry joseph, send an angel to joseph to advise him to abstain from sexual intercourse until after the birth of jesus?

after all joseph was the only one who could testify at that time that mary was a virgin, he could have easily have done that even if they had been married.

the fact that she was a virgin would not have been obvious until the birth when it could be proved that her hymen was intact.

Joe Grundy

Other posters will reply in a far more scholarly way than I can, but a few thoughts:

- 'virgin birth' was not an uncommon requirement for gods and heroes

- 'virgin' may have different meanings from that which we assume (i.e. never had intercourse) ranging from 'young woman' to 'pre-menarchal pregnancy'

- I have limited knowledge on this issue but I believe that it is far more difficult for a lay person to identify a virgin than is sometimes believed. I have always had sympathy for women required to 'prove' their virginity either in OT times or nowadays in some cultures. I am reminded of the (fictional) accounts in 'Fanny Hill' of 'professional virgins' who could by means of subterfuge and trickery command higher fees from the several men who 'deflowered' them (this would be OK until your clients started sharing experiences, I suppose).

Intelligent Analysis

by Joe Grundy in

jw
friends

these thoughts were provoked (i nearly said 'inspired') by the thread on 'when a loved one leaves jehovah'.

in particular, by the picture of the spiffy-looking distressed jw father with the immaculate hair and nice suit who has left his distressed wife to fester at home while he goes out to preach to others.

it looks as though his 'preachee' is a fairly young man, and in my (cynical) imagination the subject of the preaching has the title 'how you and your family can live happily forever' or some such crap.. it brought to my mind the question 'how on earth could this man pretend to be believable given his own circumstances?

Joe Grundy

These thoughts were provoked (I nearly said 'inspired') by the thread on 'When a loved one leaves Jehovah'. In particular, by the picture of the spiffy-looking distressed JW father with the immaculate hair and nice suit who has left his distressed wife to fester at home while he goes out to preach to others. It looks as though his 'preachee' is a fairly young man, and in my (cynical) imagination the subject of the preaching has the title 'How you and your family can live happily forever' or some such crap.

It brought to my mind the question 'How on earth could this man pretend to be believable given his own circumstances?' and led on to this:

When I was in the business of analysing and assessing information/intelligence, we used a fairly basic model to try and judge its reliability. It's nothing more than we all do in everyday life unconsciously, but it helps to formalise it and think it through.

The basis of it is that you assess the source separately from the information itself and by adding the two 'scores' can arrive at an indication of the weight and credence to be given to the information. For example, a source can range from 'completely trustworthy, tried and tested' through 'usually reliable' to 'unknown, untested'. Information can range from 'easily verifiable independently' through 'consistent with other information' to 'unverifiable and inconsistent'.

I had a few thoughts applying this principle to WTBTS publications (and I'm sure it could equally apply elsewhere too). For example:

- NWT translation: translators unknown, therefore untested. Information only partially verifiable. Overall - poor score.

- 1914 date: source known but unreliable. Information proven wrong. Overall - zero score

- 'The end is near': source known but unreliable. Previous information proven wrong. Unverifiable. Overall - zero score.

There may, of course, be some bits of information that would score higher. With my limited knowledge I can't think of any right now.

44

I accuse my wife of apostacy. Hilarity ensues.

by under_believer in

jw
friends

this one ranged all over the place.

i post these because i am hoping someone can give me additional advice.

wife: why didn't you want to read the daily text to the kids?

Joe Grundy

May I contribute to this as an outsider (not, never have been a JW)?

One of the reasons I enjoy this site is the opportunity to discuss religious issues. I tend not to do so in real life because (as an atheist) I would hate to be responsible for destroying someone's beliefs (though having learned what I have here I could ow probably make an exception for JWs and members of other destructive cults).

I was brought up as a fairly fundamentalist (in the UK, not the US, sense - there is a difference) protestant non-conformist. I was baptised at 13, left at about 15 - normal teenage stuff, discovered girls, etc.

I got married at 23 and a couple of years later my wife and I became involved with the local church ('going back' for me, brand-new to her). We got baptised together (yes, I had two!). We were enthusiastic and committed and I wanted to know more and more, so I started researching. t that time I believed that it was the most important thing in life, so maybe we should sell the house, give up my job, spend all our time doing good works, witnessing (no, it's not only JWs who do it!) etc. etc. In other words, live what we believed and really go for it. I shudder, lookin back, but my excuse is that I was fairly young then.

Actually what happened was that the research just threw up more and more issues and fairly soon led to a complete loss of faith. I was sharing the research with my wife, and - without pressure or persuasion - she came to the same conclusion.

I'm not a promoter of causing anyone to lose their faith, but I wonder what would happen in the 'UB mate' scenario (see, I'm even picking up the language!) if the UB one said something like 'I can see how important this is to you. Tell you what, let's really go into it, research, and once we're convinced, we'll sell the house and move somewhere smaller/not get that new car/furniture/redcorate/vacation and instead give the money to WT or whatever. I'll downsize my job so I can do more at home, and you can go out on the door2door a lot more.'

Or would that just be tooooo risky?

4

The Nigerian Check Scam

by target in

jw
friends

where i live, garage sales are not allowed, but there is a web site locally where garage sales online are posted.

it is great.

i sold a lot of stuff last week in preparation for our move to colorado.

Joe Grundy

I know a little about this sort of stuff.

Most transactions at every level are based on trust. They have to be, otherwise the world couldn't function. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people out there who play on this, abuse the trust and innocent people suffer. (Someone once said to me 'you can your family and freinds first, 'cos they're easier'.)

And if banks, corporations and 'professionals' get conned out of billions (which they do) what hope is there for the rest of us?

All you can do is exercise reasonable caution, and what's reasonable depends on the amount involved. It's a balance between taking nothing at face value and not becoming phobic about the danger of being ripped off (but then, isn't that true of life as a whole?).

BTW, if anyone ever approaches you about a wonderful investment opportunity based on 'prime bank monetary instruments' turn away. You have one of those already - in normal language they're called banknotes (or dollar bills for our US friends).

3

Question re Jehovah's view on marriage

by Tez in

have there always been marriage ceremonies to legalise marriage?

don't remember any really early accounts of this.

also how about today?

Joe Grundy

Broadening this to religious marriage, divorce, etc. - I'm not, never have been and so on, and I've been an enquiring atheist for many years.

I was divorced about 4 years ago, having separated about 6 months before that. All very amicable (still good friends, etc., and the reasons I won't go into here). It turned out that my ex had commenced with her boyfriend a little before the separation and we agreed that a divorce was best to clarify things. (I did the divorce myself, but it cost £150 filing fee. I insisted the boyfriend paid that and thinking about it since it was probably in accordance with OT law. Isn't there something that says if your neighbour fiddles about with your wife, servant or donkey he has to pay compensation?).

So I got the divorce on the grounds of her adultery, and while it was friendly and there was no bitterness, it did cause regrets (we were married 23 years).

So you can imagine how uplifting it was when my BiL (a fairly raving fundamentalist BAC) reassured me that this was great, because I was the 'innocent' one and the grounds were OK, I could get remarried in his church if I wanted to at some time in the future.

Thanks very much ...

3

Question re Jehovah's view on marriage

by Tez in

have there always been marriage ceremonies to legalise marriage?

don't remember any really early accounts of this.

also how about today?

Joe Grundy

Just to clarify a legal point - in the UK there is no legal recognition whatsoever of a 'common law marriage', and the partners have no rights over each other, property, etc.

It's now possible to rectify this be entering into the new 'civil partnership' arrangement.